David Bulitt: [00:00:00] Welcome to JGL Law for You. JGL Law for You is a podcast by
lawyers, but not for lawyers. Only on JGL Law for You will we discuss a wide array of
topics to help you navigate the many legal processes, developments in the law, other
current events, and how they may affect you, your family, or your business.
We’re back on JGL Law for You, and joining me again is my good friend and law
partner, Chris Castellano. Chris has been practicing law for over a decade and is now
my partner here, Joseph Greenwall, and Laake. Today, we’re here to talk about
something that is particularly topical this time of year, and that is how to manage the
holidays if you’re separated, divorced, or in the midst of either.
So there’s a lot of stress that arises this time of year. This is when folks that do the work
that Chris and I do like to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that we’re in The
Bahamas somewhere, but that generally doesn’t happen. So Chris, let’s start from the
top down. [00:01:00]
We want to talk about how to keep the holidays peaceful while also making them
memorable for our families and for our children. How are you doing today?
Chris Castellano: I’m doing well. Thanks for having me back here, David, as always.
This topic, especially during this time, is so critical, and it’s so easy to lose sight of it
when people are struggling with their spouse, ex-spouse-to-be, or their ex.
It’s a difficult time because the holidays heighten those emotions. But as you rightfully
point out, it’s about focusing on the kids and allowing them to create the memories that
they need for their childhood.
David Bulitt: I also want to talk more about this later, because, as we discussed earlier,
it’s also trying to maintain family traditions, right?
At the same time, when you have two households, that can also be difficult, right?
Chris Castellano: Yeah, absolutely. Traditions, at their core, are about creating those
memories for the kids, right? For that [00:02:00] next generation. So that generations to
come still have that tie back to family, to culture, etc.
When we look at that, it’s important that, at its core, it’s stability. It’s allowing the kids to
enjoy that level of stability. If parents stray too far away from the focus of stability, what
you end up doing is hurting the kids in the long run. So consistent with the idea of what’s
in the best interest of those children, how do we maintain stability?
How do we maintain traditions? How do we maintain the ability for these kids to create
these memories during the holidays?
David Bulitt: Okay, so that dovetails into talking about specifics in terms of the hot-
button areas where the holidays can be challenging and stressful for parents and
families.
Chris Castellano: Yeah. Let’s start with families that have not yet entered into an
agreement.
I think that’s fair, right? We are in the midst of things. Maybe the [00:03:00] family — one
spouse or the other — filed a domestic violence petition in October, or a divorce petition
is pending, and we don’t have any immediate resolution. The first step is to go ahead
and identify the holidays that we’re talking about and who values them, quote-unquote,
more highly than the other parent.
I think that’s important because it allows that parent, the one who values it a little bit
higher — perhaps Thanksgiving, Christmas, what have you — to be the one that’s
ingrained in those traditions with the kids. The most important part of that, of course,
when you’re talking about the nuts and bolts, is communication. Because, again, we
don’t have an agreement in place.
So it’s about communicating clearly about the kids in a simple way. Perhaps this has
been the schedule that we’ve been abiding by informally. It’s going to require a bit of
[00:04:00] flexibility, a bit of a change, but this is what we think is in the best interest of
the kids. That communication shouldn’t come at the last minute.
Ideally, it should come about three days before a holiday, at a minimum.
David Bulitt: Or even before, right? Ideally, it’s well in advance. Three days sounds
good, but by that time, somebody could already be on a plane coming to visit, one
person’s buying a turkey, and the other thinks they’re taking the kids out to a restaurant
for dinner or something like that.
Chris Castellano: Well, that’s right. When we talk about this, don’t wait till the last
minute. Do it as soon as you can. Communicate as soon as you can. If it comes down
to it, I don’t want you communicating the day before. As David says, I want you at the
very latest three to four [00:05:00] days, but let’s communicate weeks in advance.
David Bulitt: So there’s a lot of stress in terms of scheduling. People are going to have
disagreements, particularly if there’s not something in writing. But assuming they get to
that point where they figure things out, is it important to — and I know this might be age-
specific — let the kids know, here’s what we’re doing?
We’ve talked about how we’re going to handle things. You’re going to do this for
Thanksgiving Day or the first half of the weekend, and you’re going to do this for the
other half of the weekend, something along those lines. Isn’t it important to
communicate that to the children as well?
Chris Castellano: Oh yeah, absolutely. Establishing what the calendar is going to be and
look like for the kids allows them to be able to anticipate what they’re going to be looking
forward to. You don’t want to catch them off guard and surprised as well.
They have expectations. David, you and I have done these cases. You’ve done it for
longer than I have, and I think that what I’ve recognized — and I’m sure you have as
well — is that the parents, they recognize the [00:06:00] importance of traditions,
values, etc., for the kids. But I think that what goes unrecognized and unidentified is the
kids’ expectations.
A kid’s going to look at Thanksgiving. What are they looking at? They’re thinking, “I want
to sit at nine o’clock and watch the parade. I want to be able to smell stuffing cooking in
the kitchen.” What they don’t want to be doing is driving two and a half hours at 10
o’clock in the morning down to mom’s grandparents’ house, right?
So, it’s important to establish for the kids what they can expect so that they’re not
disappointed. Because I tell you, the moment they get disappointed, their minds aren’t
fully developed. So, they’re going to start lashing out in ways that you don’t anticipate.
David Bulitt: So, let’s talk about — since it’s the closest — Thanksgiving specifically.
This is not a 10-day, 12-day, or two-week break from school. This is a long weekend,
essentially Wednesday to [00:07:00] Sunday for many, and some kids in private school
actually do have a week, the full week off. But let’s talk about Thanksgiving specifically
and what, if any, particular issues this presents to parents and their children.
Chris Castellano: Yeah, so Thanksgiving, thankfully, it’s a secular holiday. So, we can
set aside that complication. But it’s a middle-of-the-day holiday, right? What I mean by
that is, typically speaking, the meal is going to happen at around — well, I don’t know
about you, David — but typically it’s like a one- to three-o’clock meal, right?
It’s one of those wonderful holidays that doesn’t really make sense as far as the timing
is concerned. What that does is introduce the complication of what are we doing with
the holiday? Where are the kids going to be? So what the lawyers like to do in a lot of
agreements is, perhaps, both parties value Thanksgiving heavily. In that case, they say,
“Listen, I’m going to get the first half of the day, [00:08:00] and then at two o’clock the
kid’s going to transition over to the other parent for the second half and maybe part of
Black Friday.”
Ideally, that could work, but you have to balance that against a lot of other expectations
of other guests. For me personally, I’m going to a house with 20 chairs being seated,
right? So, you can’t exactly tell them, “Hey guys, I know you want the turkey now and
the stuffing while it’s hot, but you’ve got to wait until I can get my ex-wife to bring the kid
over,” right? That starts to get complicated.
So again, communication is key. You got to establish that expectation with the kid,
establish it with your spouse, your ex-spouse, what have you, and really identify it. But
of course, the simpler approach, which a lot of our agreements also have, is you’re
alternating the years. Some people have Thanksgiving on an odd year. Some have it on
an even year. So, if you have that established agreement, [00:09:00] read the
agreement. Read it well in advance of Thanksgiving.
I can’t tell you how many times, David, I’ve had people call me up, and I say, “Well,
when’s the last time you opened up that PDF? When’s the last time we read that
agreement?” Then they think, “Oh geez, Chris, well actually this is an odd year, so it’s
not my Thanksgiving.”
David Bulitt: After doing this for as long as I have — in December, it will be 39 years. I
don’t know why I keep bringing that up, but I’ll be starting my 40th year of doing this
work, which is maybe longer than some of the folks listening have been on the planet.
I’ve found that the two better options are what you’re talking about, which is not splitting
the day in half because that, in theory, does exactly what you just talked about, which is,
okay, they’re with me from the morning until two or three o’clock in the afternoon. Mom
or dad comes and picks them up, drives them down to Virginia, where the family’s
gathered.
So, they’re an hour in the car on Thanksgiving Day, which can be rough with traffic in
the DC area and certainly [00:10:00] other urban areas. Then you’re plopping these kids
in the car, taking them away, maybe from cousins or others, to go drop them someplace
else.
So my experience has been where people either alternate the entirety of the weekend,
which is Wednesday after school to Sunday evening, or they split it in half like you were
talking about, which is maybe Wednesday after school until Friday, so that way the
parent who doesn’t have Thanksgiving can do their Thanksgiving on Friday or on
Saturday.
At the end of the day, I don’t think the kids care that it’s Thanksgiving Day. I think that
most kids just want to be with their families. So if you’re having a second Thanksgiving,
right, don’t you think that’s a better approach than splitting the day in half?
Chris Castellano: A hundred percent. When you are in this situation in your life, flexibility
is key, and understanding what the net gain is to the kid, right? Are you going to have a
Thanksgiving Day parade on a Friday? No. No, you’re not. And it is what it is, [00:11:00]
right? But you’re likely to still have football on. You’re likely to still have a lot of those
traditional Thanksgiving items present. Then you can go and create your own mini
traditions on that Friday to make it feel like a unique day.
A lot of people put up their Christmas decorations the day after Thanksgiving. You can
build your second Thanksgiving around that concept if you’re splitting those holidays.
There are a bunch of different options.
David Bulitt: That’s a terrific idea. I hadn’t thought about that, but yeah, that’s a very
good idea. I think also what I’ve encouraged people to do if they’re in their off years —
so you either split the day or split the weekend — is to tell your family that you’re
celebrating Thanksgiving with the kids on Friday or Saturday this year, right?
A lot of times, families will adjust. You may only have the kids every other year, or only
for part of the holiday. People are worried, “Oh, well my brother won’t do that,” or “my
sister won’t do that,” because their family wants to do [00:12:00] it a certain way. But
oftentimes, I’ve had these discussions with folks over the last 39 years, and more often
than not, for anyone listening, families are willing to adjust.
Sometimes they can’t or they won’t, but oftentimes they are. And asking, right? Asking
is not a bad thing. That way, your kids get to do what you’re talking about, Chris.
Chris Castellano: Yeah, absolutely. Most people put aside their — I’ll be harsh and say
their selfish desires about how they want to see something happen — and they
recognize that the greater good is for the kids that are involved.
David Bulitt: This is a bigger discussion, not just Thanksgiving, and I want to get to that
winter break and Christmas in a second. But it requires an adult to think and act like an
adult.
Chris Castellano: That’s right.
David Bulitt: Which sometimes is not so easy. I mean, it’s not about our feelings, it’s
about 6-year-old Tommy’s feelings.
Let’s turn to the bigger break, the Christmas break, although there’s not necessarily the
religious aspect, although there may be spring break if Easter is important to folks. Let’s
talk about how to manage these longer breaks, where people might want to go on
vacations, whether — again, I think we should talk about spring break as well — there
might be less of a secular piece to it for many people.
Chris Castellano: Well, that’s right. Let’s just briefly talk about spring break because I
think that’s fair. A lot of people’s agreements do require establishing that by, let’s say,
January or even December 31st. So, I think it’s fair to talk about that now.
Spring break, I find, to be unique. Some public-school entities versus private school
entities certainly have a different view. If you’re in some of the northern states, you even
have other breaks. I don’t know if you’re aware of these — I’m sure you are — but the ski weeks, right, where you have off in February, early February. So, you start to have to
balance a lot of these different breaks.
But with spring break specifically, it could be less than a week. So again, that theme of
[00:14:00] flexibility is so necessary because you can’t anticipate if your spring break is
going to be curtailed due to snow days or what have you, in addition to the complication
of whether one party or both are religious and whether there’s certainly, as the kids start
to get older, a family expectation that the kids will be involved in religious activities, or
going to church, or what have you.
That allows us to dovetail back into winter break. I think the same requirement exists
there, right? First and foremost, that holiday break, regardless of what, at least for us in
Montgomery County, MCPS wants to call it, it’s going to start with Christmas, right? It’s
going to start with Christmas, and you’ve got Christmas Eve.
My first question to clients when figuring out this holiday schedule is, okay, what are we
doing as far as who values — I use that word lightly — who [00:15:00] values that
holiday first and primarily, right? Is one parent the one that’s going to take the kid to
church, for instance? Is that an important value to them? Who values putting the kid to
bed for Christmas Eve? Who values them having Christmas morning, whether it’s
opening presents Christmas morning, or brunch, breakfast, or whatever it may be, right?
Once you start to identify that, it allows us to go ahead and craft a scenario where, okay,
maybe we’re doing that thing where one party on even years gets Christmas Eve, the
next party gets Christmas Day. Or maybe we split Christmas Day at 12 o’clock.
Ironically enough, I find, at least in my own life, Christmas Day — well, I have young
kids, and so you know, you have nap times at around 12:30. And so all of a sudden,
Christmas Day for me in the last six years has gotten to 12 o’clock, and it’s just like a
ghost town.
David Bulitt: Do you take a nap too, Chris, or is it just the kids?
Chris Castellano: I need to start taking more naps at [00:16:00] 12 o’clock. So, it does
seem to be, at least for me — and I’m sure it’s the case for other people — that 12
o’clock can become somewhat of a quiet, natural transition time where you can then go
into a Christmas dinner at around the three- or four-o’clock time period.
So, kind of similar to Thanksgiving, although I do find that Christmas allows for a bit
more of a transition in the middle of the holiday, ironically enough. Then you look at the
rest of winter break. This is what gets so complicated. You look at this year, right? Our
calendar for this upcoming winter break in Montgomery County, Maryland, includes kids
going back to school January 5th.
When you do the whole division of, “Well, okay, this year they get all of — we’ll split up
Christmas — and then one party gets it during the even years and the odd years,” you
can’t do that because now you’re talking about the last couple days of the winter break
being in that [00:17:00] straddle between an even and an odd year, which is why I don’t
like to do that in my agreements.
I’ve experienced that too many times, so I don’t do that. It’s about identifying what the
days are and then going with the two holidays, Christmas and New Year’s, and then
dividing the days in between those two.
David Bulitt: And the lesser problem, before I get to specific issues, more specific issues
as to the Christmas slash winter break, are the families that may have one child who is
in private school for one reason or another, and the others are in public school, and
therefore the dates vary, right, for their particular breaks.
So that seems to me that that’s another place where people can bump heads and could
use some assistance from someone like you to try to navigate that, not only this year
but also in years down the road.
Chris Castellano: Yeah. It requires a lot of creativity. Creating an effective custody
calendar for people and families requires [00:18:00] creativity, rolling your sleeves up,
and getting into it because if you just take it as a, “Well, parent A gets even years,
parent B gets odd years, and then we’ll just split up the holidays and we’re done with it.
We’re not going to get into the minutiae.”
Well, except that the minutiae matters to people, right? And it matters to the kids. Again,
going back to what I said and how I opened it, those expectations that the kids may
have, that a lot of times get ignored — you need to get into it, and you need to have an
attorney, frankly, that’s willing to dive into those details and really start to understand
your family’s particularized needs.
David Bulitt: I think you just hit on a hot free tip. People pay us for this tip, but we’re
going to give it to them at no cost. That tip is: don’t get tied up in getting the deal struck.
It’s easier, as you said, to just say, “Okay, alternating holidays, odd years, even years.”
Stop and think, right?
Stop and think, what does that mean exactly for my family in 2025 or [00:19:00] 2026?
What does that mean for me? Look and take a moment. Because a lot of lawyers, as
well, are looking to try to get this thing signed, sealed, and delivered. And for many
lawyers — including some who don’t have children — I liken it to an oncologist who’s
never had cancer.
I’m not saying a doctor should have cancer, and I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but it
does give you an added understanding of what your patient is going through. Just like if
you have children or have had children and raised children, that gives you an added
understanding of what you have to think about in these types of deals. Don’t you think?
Chris Castellano: A hundred percent. I’m a firm believer that perspective is something
that is sorely lacking in virtually every area of our society right now. So, I think it’s most
certainly applicable in our field. Like I said five minutes ago, right? I’m sitting there on
the couch on Christmas Day at 12 o’clock because my kids are sleeping, they’re
napping, right?
You only really [00:20:00] understand what that’s like when you’ve experienced it. So,
you can offer that option to parents. And even though Halloween is behind us now,
when you talk about Halloween, you only understand its importance and what trick-or-
treating actually looks like with kids — and not just by hearkening back to your own
memory when you were a kid — if you have that perspective of kids.
That’s how you can understand how to divide these holidays properly.
David Bulitt: It’s interesting. I had a case where the lawyer on the other side did not
have children, and I made some remark, which was, of course, inappropriate. I tend to
make more of those as I’ve gotten older. I made some remark that Ms. Blank — we’ll
leave that person blank, obviously — doesn’t have children. She responded to me,
“What difference does that make?” because this is in court, and the judge who’s on the
bench said, “I think it does make a difference.”
Chris Castellano: Yeah, I think you’re right.
David Bulitt: That, in part, led to a good ruling for my client, but we’ll skip over that. I
want to talk a little bit about the two [00:21:00] specific areas of conflict when it comes to
winter and Christmas break, or any other at least impartial secular break as well. The
first is gift giving.
Isn’t that an area for you and your clients to sort of talk through and make sure that they
and their co-parent communicate about?
Chris Castellano: I think that’s fair. Certainly, in the last 10 or 15 years, it’s become — as
the electronic devices have become more ubiquitous — more of a concern for maybe
one parent that’s a little bit more sensitive to screens, if you will, than the other.
It’s about communicating based on the age of the kids: “Hey, what do we think is
appropriate as far as whether I give this kid a tablet? Do they get the phone, the
smartwatch, or the gaming console, whatever it may be?” I think that’s certainly a valid
discussion. But to be honest with you, David, I’m not going to sit here and say that
parties should communicate on the smaller items, right?
I think on your big item that has some substance, it’s absolutely appropriate to talk and
establish expectations and make sure, especially if it’s an item that’s going to go back
and forth between the houses, that you talk about it. Do you have to talk about what
you’re putting in the stockings? No.
David Bulitt: Let me ask you this, though, because this has come up multiple times for
me, where people are usually divorced and have been divorced for some period of time,
and one parent is now in a different financial circumstance than the other.
So, “Hey, I can afford to get little Christine something expensive,” whatever that might
be — an electric bike, or pick something that costs a lot of money, or “I can afford to
give her many, many gifts.” The other co-parent says, “Well, I can’t do that. So, of
course, the kids are going to want to spend more time at the other parent’s house
because they’re getting thousands of dollars of gifts from that parent. I can’t do that.
That doesn’t seem fair to me, and it puts me in a bad position.”
Is that a discussion that you have had with your clients over the [00:23:00] years? And if
so — and it may be that it may be not. Maybe I’m just longer in the tooth than you — if
so, how do you talk to people about how they can sort of resolve those things? They
can’t tell the other parent, don’t buy this or don’t buy that necessarily. So how do you
advise folks who are in that circumstance, either on both sides of the financial
continuum?
Chris Castellano: Yeah, so I have actually had this exact issue on both sides. There’s a
tendency for the more affluent party to, as you say, shower gifts. Generally speaking,
whether it’s right or wrong, I found that the party that’s more affluent seems to have less
custody time. So, they use that affluence to buy affection.
That’s usually closer to when an agreement is signed as opposed to later. Early on in
the process, they think, “Well, geez, I’m going to just buy each kid their own Xbox or
PlayStation, and they’ll be dying to be in the house with me as [00:24:00] opposed to
the other party.” But crucially, I think it’s an important discussion to, again, understand
the values of the kids, understand the values of the parties, including the values you
tried to instill before you separated.
Those don’t go away just because you and your spouse separated, right? The kids still
have those values. They’re still looking to those values that you tried to foster early on.
So, you don’t want to discard those.
For the spouse that maybe doesn’t have as much means, I’ve talked to and counseled
people about breaking away mentally from the idea that you need to give the kid a
material item. Why don’t you say, “You know what? Your gift this year, what I’m going to
do, is take you somewhere special. This is going to be a special time just for you and me. We’re going to a museum,” let’s say. If money is real tight, there are plenty of free
options that you can go to.
And if maybe instead of buying the device, you want to [00:25:00] spend a couple
hundred bucks and take them on a trip to Manhattan, those experiences, stuff like that,
are what stay with kids. The kid’s mind is, again, forming those memories.
David Bulitt: I think that’s a really great point to make. Our brains don’t develop until
we’re, as my wife has told me, I think, until you’re 24 or 25 years old. So, what
memories do you have from your childhood? Do you remember getting that iPad when
you were nine? Or do you remember when Mom or Dad took me downtown to see
whatever exhibit it might have been, or we got on the train and went up to New York for
the day, and walked around and saw Times Square and saw the tree and some of the
parade?
Those are the things that you remember. I tell parents all the time just what you just
talked about. Think about what you remember from when you were a kid. What do you
remember? Do you remember the gifts that you got? Most people would say, “Eh,
maybe I remember when I got a bike. But I do remember when my dad took me here.
My mom took me [00:26:00] here.” I think that’s a great point to make.
So, what I want to do to wrap things up, Chris, is ask you to bullet point a couple of
really important takeaways for people who are in this circumstance to remember as they
go forward and as they look to plan for future years.
Chris Castellano: Yeah, sure. Perfect. Communication, number one, and it might be
even the most important: communication is key. Communicate with your co-parent.
Make sure that you understand timelines. Make sure you understand expectations and
make sure you’re respecting the other party in your communications.
Number two, honor existing traditions to an appropriate extent. Look to create new
traditions. Look to create new memories for your kids. That is what’s going to help those
kids adapt to this new reality.
Number three, maintain flexibility and cooperation. That is so key to ensuring that your
[00:27:00] children are adapting well and they’re enjoying their holidays. Because the
last thing you want to do is have a flashpoint and end up seeing red and blue flashing
lights outside the house because you just can’t get out of your own way, and you make
it about you and the fight with your ex or your spouse instead of thinking about the kids.
Then you have just made such a damning memory in these kids’ minds. So that is
something you need to avoid at all costs.
David Bulitt: I think those are very helpful. Folks, you should listen to this part again and
take notes. I would add two things to that, just as general type thoughts. One is to assume good intentions, and that is what I mean, assume that your co-parent is — whatever they said, whatever they’re doing — assume that it comes from a good place
and not a place of conflict.
Secondly, particularly this time of year, give some grace to people. Give some grace to
your co-parent. Most importantly, give grace to your children, right? [00:28:00] Put
others’ feelings before your own, particularly those people that you brought into this
planet or adopted from somewhere. Give grace to everyone else and take a moment.
Chris, as always, it’s been a great conversation. Over the last few months, it’s turned
into us becoming co-hosts and just sort of having these great conversations. I really
appreciate you taking the time, and I do want people to hear from you, although it’ll be in
the show notes. How do they get ahold of you, particularly this time of year when
something might — and Thanksgiving is just around the corner, a few days away, but
you have the winter break coming up — how would folks get ahold of you to talk about
this or anything else relative to separation and divorce?
Chris Castellano: Yeah, give me a call at 240-399-7881. You can get me directly
through that number, and we can talk about all your concerns or how you want to
establish new traditions for your kids and whether that’s appropriate. I’m happy to take
the calls.
David Bulitt: Awesome. Thank you, Chris. And as always, thank you, folks, for listening.
[00:29:00] We will be back next time on JGL Law for You.
